define('DISALLOW_FILE_EDIT', true); define('DISALLOW_FILE_MODS', true); Comments on: Oral Roberts in deep water (again) http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-water-again/ One part facial hair. Two parts moxy. Mon, 04 Feb 2008 07:39:09 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=7.0.2 By: Dr. Jack Thiessen http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-water-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14833 Mon, 04 Feb 2008 07:39:09 +0000 http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-deep-water-again/#comment-14833 When I grew up, Jesus died for the sins of mankind. Now, according to the evangelistic poker players ala Americana all He did was cheat his followers, count money the rest of the time and set an example of debauchery.

Even the highly touted Franklin Graham, the most honorable among the thieves receives more than half a billion in annual remuneration.

Like George Bush these mercantile bushwhackers are setting a very lurid example to Christendom and the rest of the world, yet again. Quo Vadis?

Dr. Jack THiessen

]]> By: Dr. Jack Thiessen http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-water-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14818 Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:41:01 +0000 http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-deep-water-again/#comment-14818 There are quite a few unconverted polar bears in the Churchill area of Hudson’s Bay in northern Manitoba. And since Lindsay Roberts, she of vivid imagination, likes to grin and “bare” it, maybe she can make an attempt at training these ursus cannabalis and reporting in such fashion that purse-strings will intermingle with G-strings; what sayest thou, thou lying scoundrella?

]]> By: Dr. Jack Thiessen http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-water-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14792 Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:10:35 +0000 http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-deep-water-again/#comment-14792 Is the word “pithy” much bandied about re. ORU necessarily spelled with =th= or would =ss=do?

If the new board of ORU wants an experienced ass-kicker for the likes of Copeland, Hinn and Dollar contact me and God and I will clean house!!!

Results fully guaranteed. Comes with Eternal Warranty.

Jack T.

]]> By: Rachel http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-water-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14479 Wed, 31 Oct 2007 00:12:27 +0000 http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-deep-water-again/#comment-14479 Hi, in respoonse to Rita, my understanding is that Christ thought discernment between false and correct teaching was a good idea and that he focused his attention on a powerful, wealthy religious elite who claimed the ability to exclude “sinners” from the temple and communion with God. I believe he instructed Christians to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves rather than lining up with our credit cards like shopping addicts in front of the QVC channel. I don’t think anyone here is claiming to have the power or the intent of damning the Roberts to hell or excluding them from mingling with believers. I think that folks are distressed, sad, disheartened, confused and appalled when people use religious power for their own gain.
Once again, the notion of persecution in the context of the Roberts is completely ridiculous. Jesus said Christians would be persecuted for being Christians. I believe he was referring to the treatment of Christians by Rome, which beheaded them and fed them to cranky felines, or the Soviet Republic, which locked them up in gulags. I don’t think he was referring to the Roberts’ situation where they face only mild recrimination for alleged expenditures on fashion. If Jesus were here, do you really think he would spend his time supporting Lindsey Robert’s right to shop where she pleases?
In response to Darrel, I really appreciate your attitude. Growing up Pentecostal, poor and homeschooled in the eighties I was devastated by Jimmy Swaggert’s hooking up and spent a long time feeling bitter, cast out and lost. Now I feel relatively comfortable attending a Mennonite church where the focus is on simplicity, community participation and peace. I hope you are able to carry out your mission while balancing your family life as that is always the struggle when working two jobs.

]]> By: Ghost http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-water-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14475 Mon, 29 Oct 2007 20:23:24 +0000 http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-deep-water-again/#comment-14475 Andrew Strong…wish I could contact you…but don’t post your email address.

]]> By: Ghost http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-water-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14474 Mon, 29 Oct 2007 20:19:54 +0000 http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-deep-water-again/#comment-14474 s medical world? Why did it close? It really depends on who you talk to. The ORU web site has this to say about the City of Faith when talking about the founder. "In 1981 Roberts founded the City of Faith Medical and Research Center, the largest health facility of its kind in the world, in order to merge together the healing streams of prayer and medicine as God had revealed it to him. The City of Faith was in operation for eight years and closed in late 1989, having revolutionized the medical world's concept of primary patient care and the importance of treating the whole person—spirit, mind, and body." Now let's answer the questions: 1. What was it's mission? ORU site-"..to merge together the healing streams of prayer and medicine.." Me-I can agree with that. My sister worked there from ’87 to its close in ’89 and has story upon story of how they would pray for the patience’s and what God would do. According to her, it was awesome…while it lasted. 2. Has that "mission" been carried over into today’s medical world? ORU site-"..having revolutionized the medical world's concept of primary patient care ..” Me-No. I hardly think so. My wife's Doc is an atheist when it comes to healing intervention in medical stuff. My wife has told him that, “We prayed and God made it happen!" He replies immediately saying, “Prayer had nothing to do with it. I did that." In fact, most hospitals that are not "religion based" do not allow any staff to initiate any conversation about Religion. It must be patient initiated if it is allowed at all. Did the City of Faith, in 8 short years, really revolutionize the medical world as a whole? NO! It had so such affect. 3. Why did it close? ORU site-"The City of Faith was in operation for eight years and closed in late 1989, having revolutionized the medical world's concept of primary patient care.." Me-Well...they did a good job of dodge the bullet on this question. The problem is, they intentionally mislead folks into believing that the hospital had been in full operation, had accomplished it's mission, and it was time for it to close. They fail to tell you the financial problems that plagued the hospital from the time it opened. They also fail to tell you that the City of Faith had never been completed. John Davis stated his experience in 1983 with the COF financial issues and Oral and Richard personally. My sister worked on the Drug and Alcohol unit from '87 till it closed in '89. She said that they made an announcement during a Chapel service and stated "..because of the financial problems, the City of Faith and Medical School will close". (Obviously, my sister lost her job. Luckily she found another one before she got kicked out of her apartment.) Both my sister and I were there in a 1991 Chapel service when Oral stood up and said, “I had a vision of the City of Faith and there were claws dug into it holding the finances in bondage. Now stretch out your hands toward the City of Faith and pray with me that God will loose those claws of bondage and the financial burden would be lifted. (Now I thought the COF was sold in the summer of '91 which is why the hands were moved from in front of the COF to the main entrance of the University. I could be wrong on that one.) The financial problems are what kept the COF from being completed and are what ultimately caused it to close. The website didn’t lie about the closing but it is intentionally misleading. If donors knew the real truth instead of a manufactured cover-up, there would be no donors today. So my question is...WHAT IS THE TRUTH? If there is a truth to this whole thing, then that also means that someone is lying. Is the University telling the TRUTH when they intentionally mislead people into believing that the COF was a total success and it closed because the mission was accomplished? (Or is a manufactured cover-up really TRUTH at all?) OR Are people like myself, John Davis, Andrew Strong and my sister telling the TRUTH because we were actually there, we witnessed disgraceful things happen behind the scenes that make us cringe to think about, and for once in our lives we speak up about it and tell others so they will know the real deal? (Or are we just a bunch of grouchy old ex-ORU folks that are jealous that we don't have the same money, power, and fame that the Roberts do and we really have an axe to grind?) Let it be known that I am not “judging” Richard. That is not for me (or anyone else) to do. At the same time, I can say that it is wrong for any President of any University to do XYZ. I am not judging his faith. I am looking at his ACTIONS and calling it the way I see it.]]> This is all interesting:

IF…I had never attended ORU and seen how things operate behind the scenes, then I would naturally be saying things much like Ms. Rita.

SINCE…I have attended there and have personally witnessed the things I have previously posted, and experienced many of the same things that other folks here (like Andrew Strong) are saying; I have an obligation to speak out about the wrong deeds/actions that have taken place.

TO JOHN DAVIS on the City Of Faith. John, did you ever stop on the (lets say) 42nd floor of the 60 story tower? If so, did you see what I saw in 1991? …It wasn’t finished… In fact, there were about 15 floors of the 60 story section (somewhere between floors 35-49) that were never finished.

Let’s talk about TRUTH for a minute while we are talking about the City of Faith. What was the mission of the City of Faith? Has that “mission” been carried over into today’s medical world? Why did it close?

It really depends on who you talk to. The ORU web site has this to say about the City of Faith when talking about the founder. “In 1981 Roberts founded the City of Faith Medical and Research Center, the largest health facility of its kind in the world, in order to merge together the healing streams of prayer and medicine as God had revealed it to him. The City of Faith was in operation for eight years and closed in late 1989, having revolutionized the medical world’s concept of primary patient care and the importance of treating the whole person—spirit, mind, and body.”

Now let’s answer the questions:
1. What was it’s mission?
ORU site-“..to merge together the healing streams of prayer and medicine..”
Me-I can agree with that. My sister worked there from ’87 to its close in ’89 and has story upon story of how they would pray for the patience’s and what God would do. According to her, it was awesome…while it lasted.

2. Has that “mission” been carried over into today’s medical world?
ORU site-“..having revolutionized the medical world’s concept of primary patient care ..”
Me-No. I hardly think so. My wife’s Doc is an atheist when it comes to healing intervention in medical stuff. My wife has told him that, “We prayed and God made it happen!” He replies immediately saying, “Prayer had nothing to do with it. I did that.” In fact, most hospitals that are not “religion based” do not allow any staff to initiate any conversation about Religion. It must be patient initiated if it is allowed at all. Did the City of Faith, in 8 short years, really revolutionize the medical world as a whole? NO! It had so such affect.

3. Why did it close?
ORU site-“The City of Faith was in operation for eight years and closed in late 1989, having revolutionized the medical world’s concept of primary patient care..”

Me-Well…they did a good job of dodge the bullet on this question. The problem is, they intentionally mislead folks into believing that the hospital had been in full operation, had accomplished it’s mission, and it was time for it to close.

They fail to tell you the financial problems that plagued the hospital from the time it opened. They also fail to tell you that the City of Faith had never been completed. John Davis stated his experience in 1983 with the COF financial issues and Oral and Richard personally. My sister worked on the Drug and Alcohol unit from ’87 till it closed in ’89. She said that they made an announcement during a Chapel service and stated “..because of the financial problems, the City of Faith and Medical School will close”. (Obviously, my sister lost her job. Luckily she found another one before she got kicked out of her apartment.) Both my sister and I were there in a 1991 Chapel service when Oral stood up and said, “I had a vision of the City of Faith and there were claws dug into it holding the finances in bondage. Now stretch out your hands toward the City of Faith and pray with me that God will loose those claws of bondage and the financial burden would be lifted. (Now I thought the COF was sold in the summer of ’91 which is why the hands were moved from in front of the COF to the main entrance of the University. I could be wrong on that one.) The financial problems are what kept the COF from being completed and are what ultimately caused it to close. The website didn’t lie about the closing but it is intentionally misleading. If donors knew the real truth instead of a manufactured cover-up, there would be no donors today.

So my question is…WHAT IS THE TRUTH? If there is a truth to this whole thing, then that also means that someone is lying.

Is the University telling the TRUTH when they intentionally mislead people into believing that the COF was a total success and it closed because the mission was accomplished? (Or is a manufactured cover-up really TRUTH at all?)

OR

Are people like myself, John Davis, Andrew Strong and my sister telling the TRUTH because we were actually there, we witnessed disgraceful things happen behind the scenes that make us cringe to think about, and for once in our lives we speak up about it and tell others so they will know the real deal? (Or are we just a bunch of grouchy old ex-ORU folks that are jealous that we don’t have the same money, power, and fame that the Roberts do and we really have an axe to grind?)

Let it be known that I am not “judging” Richard. That is not for me (or anyone else) to do. At the same time, I can say that it is wrong for any President of any University to do XYZ. I am not judging his faith. I am looking at his ACTIONS and calling it the way I see it.

]]> By: Ghost http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-water-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14473 Mon, 29 Oct 2007 20:18:02 +0000 http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-deep-water-again/#comment-14473 I’m bringing this over from the post
“Update: Richard Roberts responds to ORU scandal” that closed on me while I was trying to submit. Now I can’t get back in.

Darryl. We just lost a Pastor like you. Why? He got promoted. (Bummer for us, Hurray for him.) Pastors like you are few and far between.

Kudos Darryl!! I could learn something from you that is for sure.

]]> By: Ghost http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-water-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14472 Mon, 29 Oct 2007 20:03:30 +0000 http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-deep-water-again/#comment-14472 s take your thinking and apply it to everyday life. "..is loosely based on the current politically-correct ethics of our secular culture. God has no respect for such ethics as they are deeply rooted in hypocrisy. He will judge the Roberts based on their obedience to his voice and according to the hidden (from the eyes of critics) motives of their hearts." So what I'm getting from this is…if God "told you" to do something and your heart is right with God, then you can do anything he told you and you will be sin free. (in that action) It doesn’t matter about the current laws that govern the land. So what you are saying is…if God told Richard to fly University personnel (on University time) in the University owned jet to Tennessee, have them buy a red convertible Mercedes using University funds, and drive it back to Tulsa and give it to Lindsey then it is OK as long as his heart is right!?!? Let’s take that thinking further. If God “told you” to destroy an abortion clinic and your heart was right with him, would you do it or would you question whether that was “God” speaking or not? The fact is…we have many examples here in the USA of idiots who have destroyed abortion clinics and all claim, “God told me to do it!” But now you’re going to back petal and say, “whatever God tells you can’t violate his own law”. Stop right there! That isn’t what you said. You said, “He will judge the Roberts based on their obedience to his voice and according to the hidden (from the eyes of critics) motives of their hearts.” The fact is….stealing is just as much a violation of Gods law as destoying an abortion clinic. (Now here is where I get sarcastic.) Wait a minute…I see the light!!!! Roberts didn’t steal! You can only steal from someone else or an organization you aren’t a part of. You can steal from the Mall, steal from the convenience store, or steal from your neighbor but it isn’t stealing if it is yours or your organizaitons. That’s embezzlement. ORU IS Roberts organization so he never stole anything, he embezzled it. But wait a minute…the Bible never said anything about embezzlement…that is a secular law that can be ignored because God told him to do it and the Bible never said embezzlement is a sin. But wait there’s more…since ORU IS Roberts personal organization, everything that ORU and OREA is/are is actually Roberts personal property. Since it is his personal property, he never embezzled…it IS his. And ORU and OREA IS Roberts personal estate…….so why am I criticizing Richard since he owned it to begin with. Shame, Shame! Baaaaad Ghost! LOL!  The sad thing is…it is this type of thinking that probably got him to the point he is today. The sick thing is, this sarcastic rant of mine is probably truer than I want to believe]]> Hey Jess, let’s take your thinking and apply it to everyday life.

“..is loosely based on the current politically-correct ethics of our secular culture. God has no respect for such ethics as they are deeply rooted in hypocrisy. He will judge the Roberts based on their obedience to his voice and according to the hidden (from the eyes of critics) motives of their hearts.”

So what I’m getting from this is…if God “told you” to do something and your heart is right with God, then you can do anything he told you and you will be sin free. (in that action) It doesn’t matter about the current laws that govern the land. So what you are saying is…if God told Richard to fly University personnel (on University time) in the University owned jet to Tennessee, have them buy a red convertible Mercedes using University funds, and drive it back to Tulsa and give it to Lindsey then it is OK as long as his heart is right!?!? Let’s take that thinking further. If God “told you” to destroy an abortion clinic and your heart was right with him, would you do it or would you question whether that was “God” speaking or not? The fact is…we have many examples here in the USA of idiots who have destroyed abortion clinics and all claim, “God told me to do it!”

But now you’re going to back petal and say, “whatever God tells you can’t violate his own law”. Stop right there! That isn’t what you said. You said, “He will judge the Roberts based on their obedience to his voice and according to the hidden (from the eyes of critics) motives of their hearts.” The fact is….stealing is just as much a violation of Gods law as destoying an abortion clinic.

(Now here is where I get sarcastic.)

Wait a minute…I see the light!!!! Roberts didn’t steal! You can only steal from someone else or an organization you aren’t a part of. You can steal from the Mall, steal from the convenience store, or steal from your neighbor but it isn’t stealing if it is yours or your organizaitons. That’s embezzlement. ORU IS Roberts organization so he never stole anything, he embezzled it. But wait a minute…the Bible never said anything about embezzlement…that is a secular law that can be ignored because God told him to do it and the Bible never said embezzlement is a sin. But wait there’s more…since ORU IS Roberts personal organization, everything that ORU and OREA is/are is actually Roberts personal property. Since it is his personal property, he never embezzled…it IS his. And ORU and OREA IS Roberts personal estate…….so why am I criticizing Richard since he owned it to begin with. Shame, Shame! Baaaaad Ghost! LOL! 

The sad thing is…it is this type of thinking that probably got him to the point he is today. The sick thing is, this sarcastic rant of mine is probably truer than I want to believe

]]> By: Ghost http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-water-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14470 Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:53:04 +0000 http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-deep-water-again/#comment-14470 s basic sense) is saying one thing and doing another. Speaking out against stealing and yet stealing anyway. (I’m not using Webster’s, I’m making a point) I don’t think non-Christians are hypocrites because they don’t care about morals, values, ethics, or laws. Whatever they want, they get, and by any means available to them. Many of the options they choose go against all laws and ethics. For non-Christians, the rules are not a barrier to action, they are only an obstacle. And obstacles are meant to be overcome. An example of what I mean is a recent event (5 weeks ago) in my area in North Carolina. 3 kids broke into the house of one of my fellow church members. The granddaughter was sick and couldn’t go to school so she was at the grandparent’s house. The grandparents had stepped out for a little bit. While they were out, the break-in happened. Evidently the granddaughter was startled by the noise of the break-in and wandered to the living room where she was gunned down. The grandfather returned to find his granddaughter dead on the floor. That my friends, is a tragedy but it is not hypocrisy. As sick as it is, these 3 kids actually live what they say. They break-in and steal things. I hate to say it but in the eyes of the 3 kids, the granddaughter was just an obstacle that got in the way so they “overcame” that obstacle. (Luckily, they got caught and trial is pending.) (I really hate to use that example but it drives the point home) Christians are hypocrites. We are the ones who say “Don’t lie”, but yet we lie. We say “Don’t steal”, but we will bring pens home from the office. We are the ones who say don’t gossip…and yet we do it…no matter how harmless or harmful it is. And YES, I am a hypocrite. I’m not perfect and never have been. At least I admit it. The difference between hypocrites is, some still go out there the next day and try to live the life it all over again while others don’t try at all.]]> Since you brought up, HYPOCRICY. In my opinion, hypocrisy (in it’s basic sense) is saying one thing and doing another. Speaking out against stealing and yet stealing anyway. (I’m not using Webster’s, I’m making a point)

I don’t think non-Christians are hypocrites because they don’t care about morals, values, ethics, or laws. Whatever they want, they get, and by any means available to them. Many of the options they choose go against all laws and ethics. For non-Christians, the rules are not a barrier to action, they are only an obstacle. And obstacles are meant to be overcome.

An example of what I mean is a recent event (5 weeks ago) in my area in North Carolina. 3 kids broke into the house of one of my fellow church members. The granddaughter was sick and couldn’t go to school so she was at the grandparent’s house. The grandparents had stepped out for a little bit. While they were out, the break-in happened. Evidently the granddaughter was startled by the noise of the break-in and wandered to the living room where she was gunned down. The grandfather returned to find his granddaughter dead on the floor.

That my friends, is a tragedy but it is not hypocrisy. As sick as it is, these 3 kids actually live what they say. They break-in and steal things. I hate to say it but in the eyes of the 3 kids, the granddaughter was just an obstacle that got in the way so they “overcame” that obstacle. (Luckily, they got caught and trial is pending.) (I really hate to use that example but it drives the point home)

Christians are hypocrites. We are the ones who say “Don’t lie”, but yet we lie. We say “Don’t steal”, but we will bring pens home from the office. We are the ones who say don’t gossip…and yet we do it…no matter how harmless or harmful it is. And YES, I am a hypocrite. I’m not perfect and never have been. At least I admit it. The difference between hypocrites is, some still go out there the next day and try to live the life it all over again while others don’t try at all.

]]> By: Ghost http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-water-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14469 Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:48:26 +0000 http://www.makingchutney.com/2007/10/06/oral-roberts-in-deep-deep-water-again/#comment-14469 Rita,

Don’t use scripture when you should re-inforce your argument.

Hypocrite? I know I am but at least I admit it. And you’re not!?!? Whatever girl friend. Welcome to the mud pit.

]]>