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	Comments on: Follow up: The gifts and graces for ministry	</title>
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	<link>http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/</link>
	<description>One part facial hair.  Two parts moxy.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:20:31 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Green Clouds &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Friday&#8217;s Jamboree on Saturday		</title>
		<link>http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-3744</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Green Clouds &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Friday&#8217;s Jamboree on Saturday]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/#comment-3744</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] Finally The Gifts and Graces for Ministry at Making Chutney, and from another scribe, in response; The Gifts and Graces and Fellowshipping of Unitarian Universalist Ministers at A People So Bold, and Chuntey&#8217;s reply. Check out the comments section of each for some excellent discussion. [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Finally The Gifts and Graces for Ministry at Making Chutney, and from another scribe, in response; The Gifts and Graces and Fellowshipping of Unitarian Universalist Ministers at A People So Bold, and Chuntey&#8217;s reply. Check out the comments section of each for some excellent discussion. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Boy in the bands &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Congregationalist, UCC periodicals downloadable		</title>
		<link>http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-3670</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Boy in the bands &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Congregationalist, UCC periodicals downloadable]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 23:23:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/#comment-3670</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] I was going to reply to Chutney&#8217;s half-question about independency and congregationalism after reviewing (and if appropriate, referring) a pamphlet I read ages ago. But I couldn&#8217;t find it online. Instead, I found the NACCC&#8217;s magazine available for download as a PDF file: The Congregationalist [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] I was going to reply to Chutney&#8217;s half-question about independency and congregationalism after reviewing (and if appropriate, referring) a pamphlet I read ages ago. But I couldn&#8217;t find it online. Instead, I found the NACCC&#8217;s magazine available for download as a PDF file: The Congregationalist [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: deaconess_grrl		</title>
		<link>http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-3662</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[deaconess_grrl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 18:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/#comment-3662</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Lots of interesting stuff here - more than I can really comment on right now, but this definitely strikes a personal chord. As a UM, I&#039;m told that even if I feel a call to ministry, because of my sexual orientation I can not be ordained. Granted, I don&#039;t want their stinkin&#039; ordination (for a variety of reasons, including the hierarchical/institutional authority that you&#039;re questioning as well), but have chosen to become a Deaconess - which is a lay person who commits to a ministry of love, justice and service and gets commissioned through the General Board of Global Ministry.  My apologies to the non-United Methodists in the room, but now that you&#039;re talking about this, I wonder why the UM even has this position for lay people.  If we honestly believe in the priesthood of all believers (I&#039;m not sure we do), what is the point of commissioning?  Why have I chosen a titled position rather than just working a job that I understand to be my ministry?  Perhaps I&#039;m still seeking the approval or blessing of the institution I feel called to question...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lots of interesting stuff here &#8211; more than I can really comment on right now, but this definitely strikes a personal chord. As a UM, I&#8217;m told that even if I feel a call to ministry, because of my sexual orientation I can not be ordained. Granted, I don&#8217;t want their stinkin&#8217; ordination (for a variety of reasons, including the hierarchical/institutional authority that you&#8217;re questioning as well), but have chosen to become a Deaconess &#8211; which is a lay person who commits to a ministry of love, justice and service and gets commissioned through the General Board of Global Ministry.  My apologies to the non-United Methodists in the room, but now that you&#8217;re talking about this, I wonder why the UM even has this position for lay people.  If we honestly believe in the priesthood of all believers (I&#8217;m not sure we do), what is the point of commissioning?  Why have I chosen a titled position rather than just working a job that I understand to be my ministry?  Perhaps I&#8217;m still seeking the approval or blessing of the institution I feel called to question&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: chutney		</title>
		<link>http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-3637</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[chutney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 23:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/#comment-3637</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Scott,

I was educated in an espiscopal polity (of sorts), so I can&#039;t claim to know all the ins and outs of congregationalism and independency.  I&#039;m happy to be educated on these points.  But I&#039;m not trying to advocate independency, as I understand it.  I understand the need for denominational standards, but I&#039;m trying to argue that they have exceeded what is necessary and helpful for congregational life.  On the point of ministerial formation, I think it should start, intentionally and deliberately, at the congregation.  I&#039;m sure there are procedures in place to promote this, but I am skeptical that this is actually achieved.  

Clyde,

I just responded at your post.  In short, I share your appreciation for the theological meaning of profession, but I believe the professions have largely failed in upholding the tradition.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott,</p>
<p>I was educated in an espiscopal polity (of sorts), so I can&#8217;t claim to know all the ins and outs of congregationalism and independency.  I&#8217;m happy to be educated on these points.  But I&#8217;m not trying to advocate independency, as I understand it.  I understand the need for denominational standards, but I&#8217;m trying to argue that they have exceeded what is necessary and helpful for congregational life.  On the point of ministerial formation, I think it should start, intentionally and deliberately, at the congregation.  I&#8217;m sure there are procedures in place to promote this, but I am skeptical that this is actually achieved.  </p>
<p>Clyde,</p>
<p>I just responded at your post.  In short, I share your appreciation for the theological meaning of profession, but I believe the professions have largely failed in upholding the tradition.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Clyde Grubbs		</title>
		<link>http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-3633</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clyde Grubbs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 19:32:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/#comment-3633</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I argue that you have missed the theological meaning of profession in my response. Click my name.

I agree with Scott, we are a congregational polity, and we seek stonger bonds between congregations, and between ministers than that which characterized &quot;independency.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I argue that you have missed the theological meaning of profession in my response. Click my name.</p>
<p>I agree with Scott, we are a congregational polity, and we seek stonger bonds between congregations, and between ministers than that which characterized &#8220;independency.&#8221;</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: trouble		</title>
		<link>http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-3628</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[trouble]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 17:44:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/#comment-3628</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[and it&#039;s more than just that:

we hold these &quot;ministers&quot; (clergy) to a different standard than the rest of humanity (ie issues with ordaining women). we use the minister as a thing to point to god and it eventually drives a wedge in the ways we see ourselves as the image of god.

look at communion for instance. (i can only say this from the UM point of view, but i think it carries over). the eucharist is a connection between us and the divine, jesus, and one another. in order for us experience the church legitimized version of the sacrament, clergy must say magic words. what is the benefit of this hierarchy?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and it&#8217;s more than just that:</p>
<p>we hold these &#8220;ministers&#8221; (clergy) to a different standard than the rest of humanity (ie issues with ordaining women). we use the minister as a thing to point to god and it eventually drives a wedge in the ways we see ourselves as the image of god.</p>
<p>look at communion for instance. (i can only say this from the UM point of view, but i think it carries over). the eucharist is a connection between us and the divine, jesus, and one another. in order for us experience the church legitimized version of the sacrament, clergy must say magic words. what is the benefit of this hierarchy?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Scott Wells		</title>
		<link>http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/comment-page-1/#comment-3595</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott Wells]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 02:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.makingchutney.com/2006/07/31/follow-up-the-gifts-and-graces-for-ministry/#comment-3595</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Much of what you state definitively isn&#039;t so definite, even if I assume that what you write as an absolute only refers to Unitarian Universalism. Particularly the guild part. And I think you&#039;re confusing congregationism with independency.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much of what you state definitively isn&#8217;t so definite, even if I assume that what you write as an absolute only refers to Unitarian Universalism. Particularly the guild part. And I think you&#8217;re confusing congregationism with independency.</p>
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