Comments on: Be it resolved. Jesus was Republican.

By: Bill Baar

Bill Baar — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:47:24 +0000

Thanks Chuntey!

I thought some one was going to take a shot at me for getting Theology from TV and movies.

By: chutney

chutney — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:07:39 +0000

You’ve reminded me of one of my favorite scenes from Monty Python’s ‘Life of Brian.’

Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Attendee: Brought peace?
Reg: Oh, peace – shut up!

A bit violent, that peace. ;)

By: Bill Baar

Bill Baar — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:34:34 +0000

My reference on cruelty, at least the thought in my head at the moment, was one of Alister Cookes introductions to the I Claudius episodes. He was explaining the episode had been edited a bit for violence. And talked about the pervasive violence and brutality of the Roman World.

I’ll take your advice and give Matthew and Luke a read.

I have to admit my favorite image of Pilate is of him as portrayed by Telly Savalis in one of those Bilble movies quoting John,

So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, â€œAre you the King of the Jews?â€? 34 Jesus answered, â€œDo you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?â€? 35 Pilate answered, â€œAm I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?â€? 36 Jesus answered, â€œMy kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.â€? 37 Then Pilate said to him, â€œSo you are a king?â€? Jesus answered, â€œYou say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the worldâ€”to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.â€? 38 Pilate said to him, â€œWhat is truth?â€?

Telly didn’t portray Pilate as cycnical at all. Some Christians interepet this a cycnical. But I’m fully sympathic with Pilate here and find Telly’s depiction that of an honestly frustrated Politican.

I like the Romans. I like neo-Paganism. I just wish they hadn’t been so brutal.

By: chutney

chutney — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:15:53 +0000

Bill, my references are the entire books of Matthew and Luke, especially the bits about the kingdom of god/heaven. I’ll beg off providng the links and just refer you to the New Testament nearest you. ;)

I wasn’t quite clear about the nonbiblical sources on Pilate. Their opinion of him was that he was especially cruel even for a local governor. Not just that he did what had to be done in a tough job ruling unruly people.

By: Clyde Grubbs

Clyde Grubbs — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 14:51:03 +0000

owed to ceasar…his own dirty coins….

By: Clyde Grubbs

Clyde Grubbs — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 14:50:01 +0000

For a Jew the term render under Ceasar that which is Ceasar;s and render unto God that which is Gods was radical resistence. What is owed to God….heart, love, mind, soul, life…what owed to God…his own dirty coins.

Mark is full of critique of the Roman occupation forces….it was written for a non violent community of who were not participating in the Jewish uprising against Rome….which destroyed the Jerusalem church….to resist Rome meant death. Given the daily killing in Palestine for Jesus to worry about Germans makes Jesus into an armchair liberal. He was not. He was an engaged storytelling religious leader elaborating a vision that was different from the occupation.

By: Bill Baar

Bill Baar — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:40:38 +0000

PS. I make typos all over. But you’ll get the gist of what I’m saying.

By: Bill Baar

Bill Baar — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:38:10 +0000

Well give me some references Chutney. Or better yet link them in your post. That’s the power of a blog discussion.

Sure Pilate was brutal. Name a Roman Governer who wasn’t brutal. Brutality was part of the way of life.

Jesus talks love and peace, but politically he never condems slavey either.

So maybe all these quotes that would confirm Jesus a Moveon.org Deaniac are buried in the Egyptian desert somewhere by the monks fleeing Athanasius, but somehow I think he’s a good deal more complicated than that. Dig into his politics in the context of his time, and he’s no opponent of Rome. He’s quite conservative or quietist fellow if you think of him politically.

I was at a party once listening to two friends talk. One talked about a crisis of faith he felt as a kid in Chicago when an alter boy was burned to death when his gown caught fire by the candles. The other was a guy who came to Chicago from Poland as a refugee after the second world war. He had seen immense suffering as a young teenager although no one but I understood the horror he had witnessed.

My Polish friend heard my Chicago friend describe the crisis of faith and simply replied, leave God out it.

I was struck that someone who had seen hell on earth could feel that way. They he instead wouldn’t feal anger at God too, or share a lose of faith.

I’ve taken that too heart and when I see God (or Jesus) linked to politics directly like this, my first thought is, leave them out of it.

Kennedy really got it right at the end of this inaugural speech when he closed with this,

With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own. http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres56.html

It’s our work and our politics that history will judge. I think Jesus wants us to leave him out and not hang our politics on him.

By: Steve Caldwell

Steve Caldwell — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:30:19 +0000

Anybody see The Gospel of Supply Side Jesus comics?

It’s been excerpted from Al Franken’s book on Beliefnet.com:

The Gospel of Supply Side Jesus
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/132/story_13245_1.html

If Jesus were a Republican (as currently demonostrated by modern-day GOP neo-cons currently in power), I suppose this is how he would look to us. There are some subtle differences between this Tory Jesus and the one portrayed in the Gospels.

Happy holidays!

By: chutney

chutney — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 06:03:28 +0000

Really, Bill. Go read Matthew and Luke, paying close attention to the parts that talk about the Kingdom of God/Heaven, and then come back and tell me you’re not wrong.

Since you brought up Pilate, it’s important to know that all nonbiblical sources report that Pilate was a royal asshole who relished cruelty. I hardly think he felt any hesitation about executing a man who called for a “kingdom of God” and staged what looked like a mini-revolt on the Temple grounds at Passover—no matter what the Gospel writers would have us believe.