Comments on: We don’t do that sort of thing here

By: chutney

chutney — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:01:51 +0000

Nikki, I’m sorry to hear that. And I hope it wasn’t my congregation!

But it’s true that we can be too snotty and too geeky for our own good. I’m hoping you just ran into some bad conversationalists though. Maybe give it another shot?

By: Nikki

Nikki — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 06:11:01 +0000

OMG i am so glad i found this blog. My boyfriend and I attended a UU church last year and it seemed cool at first, but after awhile we noticed that some people there would hardly talk to us or would interrupt us when we would speak. One lady thought it was a sin against nature to not like wine, and another thought it was the same when it came to sci-fi/fantasy interests. He went to this get-together at one of the member’s homes, and he said he was ignored or treated like an unwelcome guest. After that, we stopped going.

By: Kim

Kim — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 20:26:33 +0000

I agree that welcoming the newcomer is very important. When we travel, we often go to the local UU church wherever we are. Our welcome as newcomers has run the gamut. As a lifelong UU, if we feel unwelcome, I feel free (or obligated) to find someone on the Board and tell them so. I figure they need the feedback. (I also tell them when we feel welcome.)

However, in my story above, no one was a newcomer. The Republican couple I asked have been members for about 50 years, and their daughter-in-law, I don’t know how long, but was there before I came in the early 1990s. Our congregation has more conservatives than any Western congregation I’ve been to.

As I said, I felt like I wasn’t getting any respect from them (the couple of people who took this position) when they told us we shouldn’t even discuss the issue let alone vote on it, and then wouldn’t show up for the discussion to give their side of the issue — like they were pre-judging that we wouldn’t respect their opinion without even giving us a chance. Then the ones who did show up for the discussion said yes they felt we respected them and their dissenting opinion.

Worse than all this though, I recently heard a story from one of our members that shocked me and made my blood boil. She took over organizing a project we had voted in (the Rochester model), though it had not been her suggestion. Then people started attacking her for what she was doing and for the nature of the project. Apparently several people phoned her at home to complain about various things — and all she was doing was trying to keep everything organized (and doing a great job, by the way.) She said she got more complaints than appreciation! She hasn’t been coming to church lately….

By: chutney

chutney — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:12:16 +0000

Kim, I think we’re basically on the same page here. The only exception I’d take is that I think welcoming the newcomer is a greater responsibility even than respecting those whose opinions we disagree with.

It’s sad when Unitarians reveal “sacred cows,” like in your story. Sounds exactly what Peacebang was talking about.

By: Kim

Kim — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 06:42:10 +0000

Well, Chutney, sort of. Ones opinions are definitely changable and voluntary — you can change your opinions. And I did say respect the person. In my experience, the people who say “love the sinner but hate the sin”, actually use the sin as an excuse to show hate to the sinner. Do you agree that i can politely and respectfully disagree with someone’s opinions at church?
When we had a controversy at our church, I took the time to ask a couple of the minority-opinion folks whether they felt they were being respected and heard. They said they did. On the other hand, their daughter-in-law quit the church over the issue. Not, however, because whe wasn’t respected, but because she didn’t respect us: she felt we had no right to even discuss the issue. I disagree with that. Why shouldn’t we discuss anything?

By: chutney

chutney — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 05:59:38 +0000

About the people who are in the minority on political opinions â€” we respect people. We have no obligation to respect ideas. There are bad ideas.

So love the sinner but hate the sin?

By: Kim

Kim — Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:53:46 +0000

There are some people in the world who always seem to know the right thing to say. I often wonder where they learned what was the right thing to say, because no one ever taught me. I sure wish someone had.
About the people who are in the minority on political opinions — we respect people. We have no obligation to respect ideas. There are bad ideas.

By: chutney

chutney — Sat, 10 Dec 2005 20:39:57 +0000

Another example.

One of my favorite people at church is a seven-foot-tall truck driver. He acts, talks, and looks like a truck driver. His politics are on the libertarian side, and, if asked, he will tell you what he thinks about current issues.

I’ve been approached by a prominent church leader who asked me if I thought he was “safe.” Someone had had a heated (but respectful) discussion of Iraq with my tall friend, and told this church leader that he was now scared of him.

To this son of a barber and daycare worker, that is ideological intolerance, and there’s probably some classism in there to boot.

Trend or no? You tell me.

By: chutney

chutney — Sat, 10 Dec 2005 20:32:50 +0000

I was just a bit rankled by the rant. Hey, not my rant. Go talk to Peacebang. ;-) But there is no context. Yes in your real-life example, that was rude, and she could have handled that better. But was it because she was intolerant? Was she having a bad day? Did you have pleasant and positive experiences with her later? Exactly. No context for me and my wife because we were first time visitors. She had the power in this situation (as a church member, as someone entrusted with a table, as someone who knew where the bathrooms were, etc.), and she misused it, however intentionally or unintentionally. If I wasn't a seminary graduate who knew church folk could be "like that," we wouldn't have come back. We definitely felt judged. And as guests in that church, it was not our responsibility to find out if she was having a bad day or whatever. It was her responsibility to be welcoming to us. And, as you said, she was rude. She failed in her responsibility to be welcoming of the stranger. As to whether this is a trend or not, you'd need to ask first time visitors to UU groups and UU folks who don't quite fit the usual UU mold (like in Peacebang's examples). But at a UU party last night, I noticed askance glances when someone put on a fur coat (which was a family heirloom). That persons' date (who was new to the group) definitely noticed and felt awkward. There was at least one other moment like that that I happened to notice, and we as a group try to be especially welcoming to new folks. (I'm quite proud of our little group for that.) If we're doing it while trying to be welcoming, wouldn't it be worse among UUs who aren't trying?

By: Jason Pitzl-Waters

Jason Pitzl-Waters — Sat, 10 Dec 2005 20:15:47 +0000

"Really, Jason, is it that hard to know whatâ€s welcoming and whatâ€s not?" No, it isn't that hard, and as a representative of my church would like to believe I am very welcoming and open, even to those who I have philosophical disagreements with. I was just a bit rankled by the rant. It is easy to point and say, "look these hypothetical people are being unwelcoming and intolerant" and much harder to effect real change towards making us more open and welcoming. When I read that I didn't know the flag questioner, or the war supporter, or the Wal-Mart shopper, and I am to assume that they are the injured parties here. But there is no context. Yes in your real-life example, that was rude, and she could have handled that better. But was it because she was intolerant? Was she having a bad day? Did you have pleasant and positive experiences with her later? Sometimes we screw up. We are dreadfully human after all, but do these instances point to a great trend of idealogical intolerance within UU? I don't know.